These 32 people have opinions

zack shaver said:

who the fuck are you to say if athiesm is stupid?? maybe christianity is stupid, cuz after all, you have no proof that there is a god!!! (xtc, Dear God)

Brittany Johnson said:

I'm not ashamed to put my real name here. Some atheist are actually considered smartest people. Because they think outside the box. How is it christians believe only in christianity and not islam? huh? tell me that? Atheism is a belief that the world was created by science. Since it is indeed been proven we evolved from primates. Well I am sorry to burst your bubble but how the hell do you think a man/essence or whatever created everything around us just because he commanded it. Oh please it's the most utterly pretentious story I've ever heard. Also explain this. If athiest can accept that others believe in a god type...then why can't others accept that Atheist should have free will and think what they want? Another thing. Did you know what Satanism is, let me refresh your memory, its christianity, judism, islam. Frankly has nothing to do with the actual Satan entity. Also atheist practice a so called 'self religion' Satansim would be practiced as if you were your own god. Live life the way you want to live it without limitations. Souly because we believe we won't be judged in the end. I find it stupid how anyone could possibly think once you die you fly up on to heaven. Face it your stuck in the ground for the rest of eternity till you rot. I think long ago, people needed something to believe in. So this whole 'eve was created from adam's rib' thing gave them hope. And to think that their life wasn't pointless. Which in fact it was. So think about that. Think about how atheist believe what has been proven. And isn't that the way the world works now? Proof. Proof that in fact the earth was created from an explosion billions of years ago. If the bible even had a tiny hint of being true. Wouldn't someone have mentioned how dinosaurs {which are real} walked the earth? And if someone is going to say to me that i'm going to hell for denying god. Well I'll guess I'll have that to look forward to.

starr said:

Hello,
It is an interesting argument. The idea of a universal negative is one I had never heard before. After researching a little, I find that I disagree with you. To quote a post found here: http://lowcountry.humanists.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=39&sid=cfa269512ec4c3cea6b37a887440d627 " If something exists, then it generally has noticeable consequences. To prove a universal negative, that the thing does not exist, it is sufficient to show that those consequences fail to occur."
A good example of this to me is that of prayer. If you are an amputee and you pray every day for your leg to spontaneously regenrate itself, then if god exists somebody somewhere should have a documented case of a leg growing back. This has never happened. It follows, then, that we have proven the universal negative. The consquence of prayer has failed to occur.
Another example might be this. If a man walks up to you on the street and introduces you to his friend Bob. You look all around him, but don't see anyone else. What would you say? The man insists that Bob is standing right next to him. You pass your hand through the air where Bob is supposed to be standing. What do you say? The man says that he can hear Bob talking to him right then. You lean forward, listening, and hear nothing. What would you say? Where does the burden of proof lie. Is it up to you to prove to everybody that Bob doesn't exist? Or is it up to this man to prove to you that he does?
It's interesting.
Namste.

starr said:

Hello,
It is an interesting argument. The idea of a universal negative is one I had never heard before. After researching a little, I find that I disagree with you. To quote a post found here: http://lowcountry.humanists.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=39&sid=cfa269512ec4c3cea6b37a887440d627 " If something exists, then it generally has noticeable consequences. To prove a universal negative, that the thing does not exist, it is sufficient to show that those consequences fail to occur."
A good example of this to me is that of prayer. If you are an amputee and you pray every day for your leg to spontaneously regenrate itself, then if god exists somebody somewhere should have a documented case of a leg growing back. This has never happened. It follows, then, that we have proven the universal negative. The consquence of prayer has failed to occur.
Another example might be this. If a man walks up to you on the street and introduces you to his friend Bob. You look all around him, but don't see anyone else. What would you say? The man insists that Bob is standing right next to him. You pass your hand through the air where Bob is supposed to be standing. What do you say? The man says that he can hear Bob talking to him right then. You lean forward, listening, and hear nothing. What would you say? Where does the burden of proof lie. Is it up to you to prove to everybody that Bob doesn't exist? Or is it up to this man to prove to you that he does?
It's interesting.
Namste.

Todd Ragan said:

First off not all atheist say there is no god at all, and yes religion is based on faith but so is all knowledge. I myself am not an atheist, I figure more of the term agnostic for the time being. I'm not an angry atheist though I must state you are being utterly precocious in your statements. I'm highly willing to speak of religion though with you unlike most atheist, I am an avid listener of Malcom X infact. I don't believe it gets much more intriguing than hearing a black power muslim turned true muslim speak. He once said that all gods are the same everyone just uses different words for them because we speak different languages. Now while I don't believe in christianity's style of a god I am yet to decide there isn't one. I actually hope there is one so my life doesn't end up a waste. Yet if there isn't I've made peace in the fact that I'll make sure I'm never forgotten. These people can bitch and moan all day, but in truth the only way any one will reach a conclusion is if atheists stop being so damn stupid. I myself find it ironic as an American citizen who was always brought up on America being a country with a freedom of religion and ideals, having the word god in it's Pledge of Allegiance. I was brought up in a Christian home and found the creation in 7 days a bit to well ilogical and scientifically disproven by my childhood love of dinosaurs. I've never found a replacement religion, I almost thought buddhism but I at that point didn't believe in good and evil. Now I find the world teetering between the two sides, though they are in a sense quite imaginary there are things that are going for good and bad causes in the world.

I don't quite know where I am going, I do know that you aren't completely right and you are definitley lacking in research of other religions and atheism itself. Even atheists believe they should follow at least certain laws of decency, which I myself as a rope walker have ceased to believe in. I guess I keep writing because maybe I'm believing in Buddhism once again. Good and Evil, finding myself as I defend both atheists, myself, and you from these people who attack without knowledge and probably without even seeing the rest of your site. Now this Britney Johnson starts off strong and shows herself only to be an utter bitch, as I go back to what I have learned over the years, I believe religion itself has become misguided. Wars rage across the world over religion, but not one person stops to thing maybe these holy wars of god against god do have something in common on both sides, belief. You have yours and well, I went neutral and looked at your site before I said something rotten.

Jonathan D Miller said:

@Todd Ragan,
All atheist do not believe in God. After that is what atheism is. You are thinking of Agnostics. They do not deny that God "could" exist.

@Nate: I like your argument. It is a good way to argue the point, that I had never thought of before.

What some of the people who have left comments here fail to understand is that a belief in a God that created the universe does not necessarily negate the big bang or evolution. For all we know those are the methods that God used to create. Genesis is a narrative written by someone thousands of years ago who had little knowledge of the workings of the Universe and science. The real value in the account of the creation is to explain that a loving and Almighty God created the Universe.

What I find disturbing is the lack of tolerance that Atheist have towards Christianity. I fear that soon we will be presecuted in the "free world" much like our brethren elsewhere are.

Frank Taillandier said:

I respect everyone's belief as long as they don't try to tell me what to do or how to think. You can pray every night for your God in your room or go to the church every sunday. I don't care. Maybe we need to tell people not to kill themselves and to respect everybody in case it's not clear. Maybe we need to distinguish Good and Evil. Religion can have his role and be educative.
God created the earth and the human mankind and all that beautiful wilderness. We still don't know enough about the universe to be sure of anything, why not a beard-man, all dressed in white, angels and all these imaginaries characters. It's cute.
No, i don't mind the folklor and don't criticize the fact that some people have to believe in something to go ahead. Heaven sound much better than "you're on a piece of rock in the middle of nowhere, waiting for the sun to explode in a few millions years".

What I find more annoying is when the church use his influence to manipulate people for her own interest. What really disturbs me is that if you go back in time, religion and domination and are intimately related. From the roman empire to the last crusade in Irak, all I see is mass killing in the name of a God - pick the one you're supporting here. It goes the same for every religion, just have a look at the situation in Israel and Palestine. Religious people deny all the books in favor of a single one : Bible, Coran, Torah, call it as you like. They promise you a better after-life, but can'tyou see that there's only one life ( sorry for buddhist people, which is one of the religion I respect most ) and that you could at least to be free to think as you wish. The most important after all is to believe in yourself.

David said:

Why blind faith's stupid:

"Atheism is the disbelief in the existence of any deities." S0, where do you read the "certanty of the unexistence of god/gods"?

Disbelieving and knowing that something doesn't exist are two VERY diferent things.

Wake up dum-ass.

Blake Fischer said:

Keep it up Nate.

After debating Atheists for quite some time, I find that almost 95% of what they say is opinion. They pride themselves on being intellectuals, yet they are guided by emotion.

Regarding religious wars:

Do you realize how many wars have been started by governments?

Yet I never hear Athiests suggesting that we shouldn't have governments.

This religious war issue is touted by atheists in almost every argument. Their hearts are skewed. If they were to live up to the intellectuals they aspire to be, they would see that using the religious wars argument against the establishment of religion is as foolish as using past wars against the establishment of government.

Get over it. Mankind will pervert every institution you throw at it.


Regarding being open-minded:

I hate closed minds. I can't stand "religious" people who have everything figured out and who are unmovable in their beliefs. I think we can all agree on that. Please realize that there are plenty of open-minded Christians out there. Christians who have taken legitimate looks at Atheism, Agnosticism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. I think too many Atheists haven't opened their hearts towards the possibility of there being a God. If you are sure in your belief that there isn't a God, then I welcome you to read the book of John. Read it and criticize it. Look up the evidence against it and remain open-minded. I'm secure enough in my beliefs to read your texts, are you secure enough in yours?

In the end, Jesus is the only person that satisfies my heart AND mind. I know how corrupt I am. I've broken so many of the 10 commandments...today. I screw up all the time and everyone knows it. So, why would God, the perfect Judge, show me mercy? Am I not guilty? Would God be a good judge if he let murderers go free? Would He be a just Judge if He let me go free? Of course not. So how can God be perfectly just, while, at the same time, show love and complete mercy? Is it possible to let criminals go free for crimes they've committed, yet be a just judge? I don't think so. The only way to show perfect judgement and perfect mercy towards someone is to place that judgement on yourself. That's what Jesus did when He came to earth.

Wes said:

First off - Atheism isn't stupid. If we're going from a pure logic standpoint here, since that's what stupid actually means, then Christianity is, in fact, stupid - more silly than stupid - but lacking logic just the same. Anyway, atheists, those that are informed, have come to the conclusion that the belief in a God or omnipotent being is absolutely an ridiculous sentiment. However, an atheist should be quick to point out that we, in fact, do not know everything there is to know about the universe, so we cannot say with 100% certainty that there is no God, but logical reasoning says that there isn't. Just like I cannot say that I am 100% sure that my hand can pass easily through a wall - logical reasoning tells me I would have to bang a hole in order for that to happen, but at any rate it's very (read: highly, unbelievably) unlikely.

As for the statement that atheists display intolerance with Christianity: That's becoming fairly true recently, and let me say that until recently I demonstrated excellent tolerance toward faith and Christianity. But, your belief in superstitious beings began to affect me adversely. See, I had no problem with delusional behavior as long as it doesn't affect me directly or indirectly. I, personally, can put up with being reminded of the fact that I live in a society predominately composed of people who believe in a make believe figure. So much so that they put it on money I use; they include it in patriotic composures and they often automatically assume that you too like to believe in fairy tales. But, when you put a person in charge of my government that leads an entire country into the ground based upon delusions he received from a make-believe friend; it disturbs me. When radicals drive planes into a few buildings with a lot of people in them, it disturbs me. When children are having their education based on science and fact stripped away in place of tall tales and pseudo-science, it disturbs me. When the narrow-minded Christians impose their ultra-conservative views upon me in the form of censorship, it disturbs me... So, yeah, I'm quickly becoming intolerant about Christianity and religion in general, and will continue to be so until you and your friends of faith quit imposing upon me.

Todd said:

Brilliant post. The universal negative argument is one I hadn’t heard before. In fact, it’s such a powerful argument that I think it can be applied to other areas with equal effectiveness.

Take the war in Iraq. The Bush Administration justified this war by claiming that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction. Opponents were outraged when none were found. But to claim they don’t exist would require omniscience. Obviously, that’s stupid, and therefore the war can be justified.

I think we can finally put the tooth fairy debate to rest as well. There are many, many of you who would deny the existence of the tooth fairy. Yet this position requires absolute knowledge of the universe. It requires far less faith to believe in the tooth fairy than not to. Stupid.

So to all you Atheists, liberals, and tooth fairy nay-sayers out there, face it: you’ve been beaten.

Todd said:

Brilliant post. The universal negative argument is one I hadn’t heard before. In fact, it’s such a powerful argument that I think it can be applied to other areas with equal effectiveness.

Take the war in Iraq. The Bush Administration justified this war by claiming that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction. Opponents were outraged when none were found. But to claim they don’t exist would require omniscience. Obviously, that’s stupid, and therefore the war can be justified.

I think we can finally put the tooth fairy debate to rest as well. There are many, many of you who would deny the existence of the tooth fairy. Yet this position requires absolute knowledge of the universe. It requires far less faith to believe in the tooth fairy than not to. Stupid.

So to all you Atheists, liberals, and tooth fairy nay-sayers out there, face it: you’ve been beaten.

Joey said:

Great article, very interesting. I laughed when I saw the people from MySpace talking shit about your article. The fact that they can't write an intelligible sentence kind of negates what they have to say.. IMHO. How can you take the following statement seriously?
"...Some atheist are actually considered smartest people. Because they think outside the box. How is it christians believe only in christianity and not islam? huh? tell me that?..."
Ahahahahaa

Kaneda said:

Its an interesting article, however there is a flaw with the 4 rooms argument.
I, an atheist, look in 1 room and say "why should i assume there is something in the other rooms? Untill I look in the other rooms I will, based on my knowledge of the first room, assume there is nothing in them.

But you say "However, to state the opposite, that the building is not empty, I would at the very least only need to know about one room."
That seems like good logic at first, however it do0esnt make sense seeing as you dont know whats in the other rooms either.

How is assuming there is nothing in the other 3 rooms any worse than assuming there IS something in the other 3 rooms?

In fact, seeing as the first room was empty, it is more logical to assume the others are empty as well.

Alexander said:

I have the answer....

It does not matter if you are a Christian or an Atheist. "Sin" is a moral and ethical debate. Though it may vary across cultures, there are certain things such as murder, theft, and torture which should never occur, regardless of belief.

Lest you possess masochistic tendencies, the golden rule should always be your guiding light.

Life your life, be a good person, and treat each person you meet as though it were his or her last day on Earth.

Alexander said:

*live your life

Sorry.

Kaneda said:

@Joey, funny how you make fun of other people's posts not making a point in a pointless post.

Kat said:

good arguement...but then we might as well beleive in unicorns and the boogie man or santa. Can't disprove it. lol

effigy said:

this covers a few points i bring up in discussions with others regarding religion.

religious beliefs have moved in phases throughout history. polytheism, then monotheism, and the more contemporary agnosticism and atheism. pay close attention to direction these have moved in as mankind discovers more and more about the universe in which it dwells.

i was a catholic for the first eighteen years of my life and never did i feel god's divine power. i prayed, i confessed and repented, i knelt before his alter and begged for his light to show me the way. silence is all i received from this so-called omni-benevolent being. god, if real, seems to prefer divine indifference over divine intervention. recall the numerous attempts throughout history to erase his 'chosen people' from existence.

believers certainly adore their sacred texts, no? are these texts really that difficult to conjure from one's imagination? what makes the book of genesis' version of creation any more special than tolkein's creation of arda from the silmarillion? both are fantastical and require large amounts of faith due to the lack of concrete science behind it all.

believe what you want, just think for yourself. that is all people should do.

think for yourself.

Nick Brunk said:

Ok, so I don't have absolute proof that Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, etc. exist. Does this mean I should believe in it simply because I am not absolutely, 100% positive they do not exist?

Nick Brunk said:

The fact of the matter is, atheists do not say absolutely there is NO GOD. They simply say that the literal translations of all 3 Abrahimic religions are inaccurate and it is very improbable that God exists. Quite the same as saying it is very probably that Santa doesn't exist, so I suppose sir, since no one is omniscient, we better start believing in EVERYTHING so we don't pose ANY universal negatives at all.

Jim Brown said:

Why can't god heal amputees?
http://officialgodfaq.com/
html test

Nick Brunk said:

Wow. Many typos on my part in my previous two comments. :-o

Jim said:

Absolute knowledge is not required to prove God doesn't exist.

All claims of God's existence originate from the Bible, nowhere else. To prove or disprove God's existence, the only knowledge anyone needs is knowledge of the Bible.

If you read the Bible and conclude it is ripe with ancient myths, full of numerous contraditions, bizzare weirdness, written by men living in a tribal prescientific culture, and just plain not true, then it's rational to conlude God does not exist.

If you read the Bible and conclude it is the inerrant word of God... well then, credulity has gotten the better of you.

Michael Thackray said:

Wow this thread has degenerated. Any actual decent argument is drowned in emotions, irrationality, and ignorance/arrogance. If half of you met urselves on the other side of the argument, you'd assume you were an idiot. If your here to rage, rage away and let the rest of us have a laugh. If your here to learn and have an enlightening discussion....your in the wrong place.

I do believe in an infinite entity, and I believe athiesm ultimately places that status on the self. If you'd like to hear why, or let me know why you disagree, send me an email. I like these discussions to have some semblence of maturity and order. otherwise you get a thread like... this :s

Michael Thackray said:

email is mjthackray@hotmail.com

Jordan Policastro said:

Atheism IS stupid. We win. And actually there is proof of God.

Isaac said:

This is what's so great about this kind of argument, nobody can prove their side. I'm a Christian and I feel lucky because it's something I truly believe and I got it right on the first try.

Lukas said:

athists believe the following. "once billions of years ago nothing exploded and all life came from a rock!"
yeah you are the people thinking with logic lol.
God loves you

Lukas said:

athists believe the following. "once billions of years ago nothing exploded and all life came from a rock!"
yeah you are the people thinking with logic lol.
God loves you

Lukas said:

athists believe the following. "once billions of years ago nothing exploded and all life came from a rock!"
yeah you are the people thinking with logic lol.
God loves you

Adam Burgess said:

Well with a "Universal Positive" The emphasis is on you proving that there is somthing in one of those rooms. There is plenty of evidence for a Godless Universe, Science may not have opened all the doors but that does not mean that there is a God sitting behind one by Default. What you are refering too very typicaly is A "God of the Gaps" Ie, you dont know whats behind the door either, so you ignore all the other doors and have "Faith" that a bloke with a beard is behind going "Ogga Bugga" and making everything.

Rubbish theory and it needs to be said because unfortunatly logical people find it stupid to quote a fairy tale.